Exposing The Truth

Hoppers Crossing Christian Church is a small home based church in the Western Suburbs of Melbourne. Over the past two to three years since inception, we have become concerned about the state of the Christian Church in western society and have therefore embarked on a mission to spread the truth about what we are seeing.

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Why did I leave the established Church in our area?

Why did I leave the established Church in our area?

Hebrews 10:25 is often quoted to allegedly demonstrate that Christians should not forsake meeting together as members of an established church. Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Hebrews 10:25) Some will even use the example of a coal that is removed from a hot fire will soon lose its heat and may only regain that heat when it is placed back with the other hot coals. However, that is not what this passage is really saying. It is not to do with the gathering together for worship, but instead with who they actually are worshipping with. The synagogue (sunagoge = an assembly of people; a place of assembly) was the accepted place for Jews to gather together for worship according to the Old Testament laws. But here that term “gathering … together” (Hebrews 10:25) is episunagoge, a term used in the New Testament specifically for the gathering of Jewish Christians as opposed to the gathering of Jews at the Temple or synagogue. The context was of the persecution of Jewish Christians especially those who lived in Jerusalem. The writer to the Hebrews exhorted the Jewish Christians to not forsake their Christian worship meetings by returning to their previous Judaism gatherings for worship. In fact, in the early Church, small gatherings in people’s homes were common; often the groups were small, they had no established worship building, and persecution was minimised if groups were kept small (thus keeping a low profile).

In 2013 we decided to hold home church meetings for the extended family. The move was prompted initially by the apostasy of a local supposedly biblical church (Living Springs Baptist Church, Rockbank, Victoria) that some of the family attended. In 2012 they did not have anyone appointed as pastor, and toward the end of 2012 I was informed that they were advertising for a pastor. Interestingly, while I received a copy of the advert, it was apparently never made public. The person who was filling in for the pastor position (a deacon and a member of that church) had apparently decided to not make the vacancy widely known. As it turned out, he seems to have desired the position for himself without having to compete for it.

Living Springs, via their pastor-hopeful, was at that time coming under the influence of a nearby calvinist church, Gracewest Bible Church. It is interesting to note that so many calvinist churches like to advertise themselves as “Grace” churches (when they show so little grace) and “Bible” churches (when they show so much disregard for biblical truth). Gracewest was supplying some of the speakers for Living Springs, and they regularly used the Living Springs property for their own meetings. At that time I was just starting to gain some understanding of the immensity of the apostasy of calvinism and wanted to ensure that Living Springs was given an opportunity to make a stand against this heretical doctrine.

Therefore I applied for the position of pastor at Living Springs. At first the person (DD) making decisions (and my competition as it turned out) didn’t seem to take my application seriously. I received no reply and contacted him again to see what was happening. Perhaps he was trying to hold me off until he got his own pastoral options more settled. He then initially promised me quite a few Sunday mornings, but didn’t get back to me. Again I contacted him and he now said he only had a few Sundays left for the first half of the year, and I could take them or leave them. I took all 4 dates offered.

It was then that DD announced that he was officially applying for the position, but told me that it was only a part-time position offered, because the church was unable to provide full-time pastoral upkeep. At this time there were only 2 deacons, DD and another. I contacted the other deacon and said I’d been told it was only part-time. The other deacon then apparently queried it being announced as only part-time and brought it up with DD who promptly demanded that 2 more deacons be appointed, nominating two who were his supporters; both were appointed. The diaconate, now with numbers to support DD, then recommended to the church membership that DD be appointed (I wasn’t mentioned at all) and the church membership, with just one option from which to choose, selected DD.

I had one more Sunday preaching there after DD was selected. DD had arranged for a church trip to the snow that weekend and the church was almost bare. (I don’t think he wanted to hear any more of my preaching!) I gave the sermon and then informed them that I was not available for any further preaching there. It was soon after that I decided to commence our home church meetings.

It was clear that there had been a lot of less-than-Christian conniving going on to ensure that I was not able to get a chance at the pastor position there. But the whole story still has more to go. Two months before the church voted to appoint DD, he announced to me that he was withdrawing from the running for pastor. He told me he had a heart condition that apparently (according to him) could be dangerous, especially if he got excited or stirred up at any time. However, the following Sunday (when I turned up to preach), he then said he was back in the running. (I suspect his wife, who hadn’t appreciated him withdrawing his application, may have influenced him.)

I wasn’t too disappointed; getting the position would have meant a lot of travelling and I didn’t need the money, having already retired. But the extent of subterfuge and deception shown by DD and his two extra-appointed deacon-supporters was breathtaking in its audacity. I had considered that if God wanted me there, then I’d be available. But DD didn’t seem to consider whether or not God wanted him there; he apparently had decided that he wanted to be there regardless of whether God wanted him there or not. After all, if he were called by God to that position, why would he need to deceive others in order to obtain the position? And yet he manipulated the whole lot so much that I was basically shut out. Even the nominating and appointment of the two extra deacons (in such unholy haste!) was not done according to the requirements of their constitution.

I had thought that, having effectively run a church at Timboon (much larger than Living Springs) for many years should have been worth considering, but, as it turns out, it seems DD was to sacrifice truth for the sake of selfish convenience and desire. Such behaviour done in God’s name but instead opposed to God’s holiness does not bode well for those who take this action. God is not mocked, and it does seem that Living Springs is now not the church it used to be. How the mighty are fallen! I also wondered what became of those who used deceit to gain control of that church.

 Many years ago an ungodly woman took control of a Christian school where I was principal. I was working for greatly reduced wages and she manipulated the school board to get rid of we two teachers and appoint another whom she apparently thought she could better control. However, after they’d dismissed the two of us, they appointed another whom they declared (allegedly with 3 Bible passages to “prove” it) had been chosen by God to replace us. And yet, according to that same school board, just 2 months later, God’s “chosen” principal had been “unchosen” by God (no doubt again with verses to “prove” it); God no longer wanted her to stay and wanted her dismissed. They went through 2 more principals after that, and by the end of the year after I was dismissed, the school had lost ¾ of its enrolments. They should have supported, not dismissed, the 2 teachers who were doing a good job!

But the story doesn’t end there! When I advised our church at Melton (ODBC) that we were commencing home church for the sake of avoiding the heresy of calvinism, we were told that our “Bible studies” did not take the place of worship at church on Sundays. Of course, ODBC was reasonably calvinist itself. After one of their leaders had one day mentioned something about evangelism, I asked how he carried out the great Commission (calvinist theology is by its very nature non-evangelistic). He replied that he did it because he was commanded to do so. This is a rather standard calvinist response to the great commission. Apparently, to him, the great commission didn’t extend to making efforts to winning souls!

ODBC had appointed a pastor around the time I left to hold home church. He also made it clear to me that home church was alright for a Bible study but we should attend worship services with the rest of our church in Melton. He visited us in January 2014 primarily it seems to advise us to return to the fold at ODBC. He said we should get our son (who used to attend Living Springs) to return to Living Springs and that we should return to ODBC. (Apparently he considered DD of Living Springs to be a godly man, something I would have disputed after my interactions with him.) At one point in the conversation, I had occasion to state that I was a very logical person, having a Pure Maths degree from Melbourne University. He said that being mathematical didn’t make me logical and that I was suffering from the delusions of an over-sensitive nature (a nice way, it seems, of declaring me mad or illogical). After he left I pondered our future with ODBC. I didn’t want to rush into it, but it had felt like he was trying to use his assumed authority as our pastor to manipulate our decision-making for our family. After ten days of pondering, we decided to resign our membership at ODBC in order to remove any assumption of pastoral authority over us from someone who seemed as if he were trying to manipulate us against what we perceived to be God’s will for us.

When the vote had been taken at ODBC in 2013 whether to call the pastor, I had not been confident of his suitability. I’d had misgivings but wasn’t able to define those misgivings clearly enough at that time to vote against him. However, we did abstain from voting for him; we had decided we couldn’t vote in favour of his appointment. After his visit in January 2014 I was more assured that he was not the pastor we wished to have over us and thus we resigned on 21/01/2014.

Later on (in April 2016), I became aware (via continued contacts with attendees of ODBC) that their church was allegedly teaching Paul Tripp materials. After researching Tripp extensively, I reported my findings back to an attendee of ODBC. I concluded that Tripp was not a biblical Christian, instead teaching heresy associated with calvinism and spiritual mysticism. The ODBC person acknowledged that my assessment of Tripp could be right and that he had identified what he considered to be heresies in Tripp’s teachings.

Tripp does happen to be a major component of what is today called Biblical Counselling, a not-very biblical counselling associated alongside the new calvinism doctrine developed (from about 1970 onward) at Westminster Theological Seminary of USA. And ODBC did appear to get a “biblical counsellor” appointed no more than 2 years or so after the ODBC was allegedly teaching Paul Tripp materials. (I note that on 16/04/2018 the ODBC advertised Biblical Counselling on its website.)

It was originally the emphasis upon the unbiblical teachings of MacArthur by some of the ODBC leadership that first prompted us to consider cutting ties with ODBC. Gracewest, the church that appears to have influenced Living Springs to slide down into the apostasy of calvinism, based its doctrine largely upon the teachings of MacArthur. It was also largely those MacArthur teachings that caused me to have serious discussions (mostly by email) with a member of Living Springs (after our home church commenced). It was also that same Living Springs member who enabled me to understand the depth of heresy that MacArthur’s teachings were taking Living Springs. When I had emailed the members of Living Springs (after we left), warning them of the dangers of the MacArthur calvinism that was being inflicted upon them by Gracewest, I received no response, other than that some appeared to have been cautioned by their leadership to not have any communications with me. It was clear that the leaders of Living Springs (probably DD and his faithful deacons under the guidance of Gracewest leadership) didn’t wish for their members to know what was happening! And like the blind leading the blind, they could all end up in the ditch unless they start testing things for themselves as per 1 Thessalonians 5:21. Calvinism doesn’t like the common membership to ask too many awkward questions in case they start to actually see where they are heading!

After all, it was A W Pink (one of their revered calvinist “authorities”) who taught that, in general, church members were unqualified to oppose the “authoritative” teaching of their qualified church leaders; he said of the fall of Jericho: The priests blowing with the trumpets of rams’ horns pictured the servants of God preaching His Word. The forbidding of “the people” to open their mouths signified that the rank and file of Christians are to have no part in the oral proclamation of the truth―they are neither qualified for nor called to the ministration of the Word. Nowhere in the Epistles is there a single exhortation for the saints as such to engage in public evangelism, nor even to do “personal work” and seek to be “soul winners.” (STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES July, 1948) That is, keep quiet, don’t argue, and obey your church leaders!

Therefore we have continued to be committed to our home church rather than attend any local church group, most of which do not appear to be biblical and most of which also have loud rock bands playing music from Hillsong (which is more committed to making money than evangelism).

The Tribulation curtain-raiser: the seven seals

The Tribulation curtain-raiser: the seven seals

By the term Tribulation I mean a 7-year period of extreme world-wide affliction ending with the greatest battle of all time: Armageddon. According to the Bible, it will be centred around God’s chosen nation, Israel, with their final week of years (as per Daniel 9:24-27) in ministry for God once more. This 7-year period will culminate with the return of Christ their Messiah whom they rejected 2000 years ago (consequently being replaced by the Gentile Church for that time). The Tribulation will be a time of intense affliction with those of Israel required to repent of their iniquity or be rejected by God from being Israel. As the Tribulation approaches, we would expect to see greatly increased focus by the world upon Israel, especially in terms of civil unrest and warfare. By the end of the 7-year Tribulation, the armies of all the nations of the world will gather at Armageddon from where they will attack Jerusalem and its inhabitants (Israel). This is the gathering by satan’s “spirits of devils” who “go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. ….. into a place  called … Armageddon.” (Revelation 16:14, 16)

The opening of the seals in Revelation 5 represents the opening of the Tribulation period, the curtain-raiser events that herald the first act of the end-times Tribulation. Christ is the one who opens them. He is portrayed as the slain Lamb (Revelation 5:6), the only one “worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof” (Revelation 5:2). While there are other passages (such as Matthew 24) that record various signs of the end-times including the lead-up to the Tribulation, this document will focus on the events recorded in Revelation 6 as the curtain-raiser seals are opened one by one. (There are 7 seals in all, with the 7th seal becoming the 7 trumpet judgements.)

Seals ensured that information was only read by those who were eligible to see such. They were usually made with a signet ring or an approved stamp pressed into hot wax; the impression made identified the sender, and ensured that only the recipient could open (by breaking) the seal. Some documents were sealed with many seals to ensure greater security of the information. Christ takes hold of the document, a “book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.” (Revelation 5:1) The opening of the seals is like the orchestral overture to an opera; it was played before the curtain went up, before the main event, using themes that would be heard again during the main event. Once the overture started, people knew the main event would be soon, that the curtain was about to be raised; therefore they prepared by sitting down, stopping conversations with each other etc.

The first 4 seals are known as the horsemen of the Apocalypse. They make their debut here in Revelation 6 but they do not just occur once, like other judgements later on; their effect continues throughout the Tribulation. Once the Tribulation commences, these judgements will become the norm like a ripple effect for this final 7 years.

Seal 1: And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. (Revelation 6:1-2) While some may identify the rider as Christ, it is actually the antichrist pictured here. He has a bow, not the sword of Christ (Revelation 19:15), and Christ only returns visibly at Armageddon, not at the beginning of the Tribulation. The 6th seal depicts the antichrist who will be revealed at the start of the Tribulation, and will play a main role as satan’s servant throughout the Tribulation. Before Israel can take centre stage again, the Church has to bow off the stage in what is called the Rapture (the snatching away) (Romans 11:25-27). The antichrist (that man of perdition) will be revealed after the Rapture (2 Thessalonians 2) when he makes a covenant with Israel at the start of that final 7-year period (Daniel 9:27), in the middle of which he causes sacrifices to cease because he is the abomination who sits in the Temple to be worshipped as God  for the second half of the Tribulation (Daniel 9:26-27; 2 Thessalonians 3-4; Matthew 24:15). The antichrist will be revealed from the beginning of the Tribulation and will continue until Armageddon.

Seal 2: And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. (Revelation 6:3-4) The great sword depicts that there will be war as we have never seen it before, war that will involve the whole earth; no-one will remain neutral. Huge numbers will die in wars throughout the Tribulation; this does strongly suggest the destruction by nuclear warheads far greater than those two that ended Japan’s war efforts in 1945 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There will not be just one event but multiple events throughout the Tribulation, but they will be particularly focused upon Israel and the middle-east. The 4th seal (Revelation 6:7-8) suggests that more than 2 billion people will die in this 7-year period. The 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) strongly suggests a serious nuclear exchange which causes earthquakes, and the sun goes dark and the moon turns to blood. Such an event in itself could cause a colossal number of deaths.

Seal 3: And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. (Revelation 6:5-6) This depicts massive famine worldwide for the Tribulation period, but mainly for the common man. The food shortages will hit ordinary food requirements, leaving the rich man’s fare alone (oil and wine depict that luxuries will not be hurt). Those who have money and authority will live well, while the rest will starve. This is already occurring in places especially those under communist regimes, where the leaders live luxuriously at the expense of their citizens. However, it will be much, much worse in the Tribulation.

Seal 4: And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. (Revelation 6:7-8) (“pale” = chloros = green; pale yellowish or green; it is where we get “chlorine” from)
The first three horsemen depict death  in various ways, but this 4th horseman represents death himself. It appears that at least ¼ of the world’s population will be killed in various ways. With the current population over 8 billion, this could see more than 2 billion people die, an unbelievably high number. During the tribulation death and suffering will abound; the suffering will affect people world-wide, although some groups will be hit harder than others.

While we might things are bad now, once the Tribulation begins, we’ll have to invent a new word for the bad that occurs then, for it will be so extreme it’ll make what we have now to be seen as good! And this will include those who repent and are saved during the Tribulation, most of whom will be of Israel. Israel will be savagely persecuted and there will be many martyrs for the faith. Seal 5 describes this: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Revelation 6:9-11) In Revelation 7 the judgements are held off until the 144,000 of Israel are sealed. This is generally assumed to mean that they are protected from harm, which may indeed be so because these will be God’s servants during the Tribulation; the seal marks these 144,000 as belonging to God, His workers in the harvest, an army of evangelists who preach the gospel throughout that final 7 years. However, the same protection is not promised to their converts. In this final 7-year end-times period, 1/3 of Israel will hear and repent; this could be millions worldwide. And every one of those converts will be declared by the antichrist to be a public enemy of the state with the penalty being execution. Note Revelation 6:9-11 above: they will gather under the altar at God’s throne pleading with God to avenge their deaths. They are told to wait a bit longer until all those who will also be killed for their testimony are gathered with them under the altar, and then will come the vengeance. These may include martyrs of all ages (this is uncertain) but the emphasis is certainly upon those who are martyred of Israel during the Tribulation. Revelation 20:4 says that during the Tribulation they will be beheaded for their faith: “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Seal 6: And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (Revelation 6:12-14) One of the signs of the approaching Tribulation is earthquakes; they will be more severe and deadly than anything before them. And, extreme volcanic eruptions are also likely to occur. Some of the above events of the 6th seal could be caused by these extreme natural occurrences. However, it is more likely that this is a description of extreme atomic warfare. A nuclear exchange of many warheads may cause earthquakes and even cause mountains to be levelled; note how Ezekiel described the effects of the war that God will bring upon Israel at the commencement of the end-times (Ezekiel 38:14-23) where it is most likely that multiple nuclear warheads are deployed: “the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.” (Ezekiel 38:20) (Israel’s enemies are listed there as including Iran, Turkey, Russia, Libya, and Ethiopia. Joel also lists attacks from the coasts of Gaza plus Tyre and Sidon in southern Lebanon.) Earthquake bombs are already being deployed in the middle-east, and they aren’t even nuclear – yet!

It is certain that nuclear weapons will be used during these end-times. Note that those who are killed at Armageddon will experience nuclear symptoms: “And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.” (Zechariah 14:12) The 3rd trumpet judgement of God also appears to describe nuclear radiation fallout far worse than that experienced at Chernobyl in Ukraine in 1986: “And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.” (Revelation 8:11) The name Chernobyl means “Wormwood“. Chernobyl is named after a plant commonly found around that area of Ukraine. The plant’s common name is mugwort, also known as wormwood; “Artemisia vulgaris, commonly known as mugwort, common mugwort, or wormwood” (Wikipedia) Chernobyl means Wormwood! The star named Wormwood could easily be a nuclear missile exchange using a dirty nuclear bomb such as a cobalt bomb. “A cobalt bomb is a type of salted bomb: a nuclear weapon designed to produce enhanced amounts of radioactive fallout, intended to contaminate a large area with radioactive material, potentially for the purpose of radiological warfare” Such radiation fallout can spread widely, causing water supplies to become highly radioactive. “”bitter water” can metaphorically describe radioactive water supplies”.

The signs of the 6th seal could all depict a multiple nuclear exchange: massive earthquakes, sunlight greatly reduced, the moon turning red, the stars of heaven may refer to satellite warfare or to high altitude ballistic missiles, and a nuclear explosion can cause a massive outward-spreading explosion that could be described as the sky breaking up like a scroll being rolled up, and mountains and islands can literally be moved out of their places. Russia has boasted of having high trajectory hypersonic ballistic missiles that can fall upon the target from high altitude, making it very difficult for any anti-missile system to target them. Such missiles could look like meteors coming down from space. Israel’s anti-missile protection would not be very effective against such missiles; their anti-missile systems would struggle to lock onto such missiles. “High trajectory hypersonic ballistic missiles pose a significant challenge to Israel’s anti-missile systems, as they can travel at speeds that make interception difficult. Israel’s defense systems, while advanced, may struggle to effectively counter such fast-moving threats. … The unique flight characteristics of hypersonic ballistic missiles pose challenges for missile defense systems. Their speed and high trajectory can make them difficult to track and intercept.” Therefore it is possible that Russia (who claims to have such weaponry already available) will come into this middle-east war soon with a barrage of such weapons using nuclear warheads.

The book of Joel pictures for us the end-times when God brings great affliction to His people Israel to bring them to their promised everlasting righteousness. He notes that the sun turning dark and the moon to blood will occur just before the Tribulation (which he calls “the great and the terrible day of the LORD”). “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” (Joel 2:31)

While the effects of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse (Seals 1-4) may continue over much of the Tribulation, and the martyred saints (Seal 5) is not an obvious event for those on earth, it is that 6th seal that will probably be the world’s first clear indication that the curtain is about to be lifted on the greatest event in all history: the 7-year period known as the Great Tribulation. Seal 6 may be that which is described in Ezekiel 38 where God pulls Israel’s enemies (with hooks in their jaws – Ezekiel 38:4) to war against Israel. They will invade Israel, after which this huge invading army will be annihilated (probably by a European army led by the antichrist after making a defence treaty with Israel). They will fall on the mountains of Israel (Ezekiel 39:1-3) and it will take 7 months before Israel is sufficiently cleared of the piles of bodies (Ezekiel 39:12).

Those who lay hands on Israel to harm her will suffer God’s wrath! “For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.” (Zechariah 2:8) That is, make no mistake, he who lays their hands on God’s nation Israel (the apple of His eye = the centre of His attention) will be harshly dealt with.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Revelation 6:15-17)

Therefore, when you see the events of the 6th seal and probably also around that time many Church people just disappear, then you have around 7 years remaining before Armageddon, just 7 years to make peace with God or suffer eternal condemnation in hell! Consider this very carefully. You may not think the end is coming, and that life goes on as it always has. But once the end comes, you will have chosen to live in heaven forever (by repenting before God and asking Him to save you from the hell to which your sin condemns you), or you will exist in hell forever. And if you sit on the fence and refuse to commit yourself, if you refuse to do anything about it, then you will still be tormented in hell forever just as surely as the ones who choose to go there.